Jul 31 / Ozymandias

The Problem with Modchips

I received an email from “HcC” earlier last week with an interesting topic: console modding. To quote:

“I also wanted to ask your thoughts on piracy and the xbox modding community. How you think it impacts the way games are made, if you think it does, or anything of the sort. It’s just a topic I wouldn’t expect to see on your blog and would love to know your opinion. Do you think it will change the success of the xbox 360 in a positive or negative way if it is modded beyond the current firmware runaround.”

It’s a great question, and I’m happy to share some of my thoughts and opinions on the topic.

For the uninitiated, a mod chip is simply a device that circumvents some of the protections placed on a video game console. A “modded” console is then one that can run unauthorized content or games and potentially enable new functionality. Modchips (and “softmods” or software exploits) have been around since the beginning of consoles, and have a small but vocal minority who tend to argue vociferously about why they have a “right” to use them. These modchip defenders tend to use one of three arguments to justify their use:

the ability to copy and play pirated games
the ability to play import games
the ability to add new functionality (such as running homebrew software)

Let’s take these on one at a time.

First, the ability to pirate games. I mean, really – what can you say here? We already had a conversation about piracy earlier, and at the end of the day every game not legally purchased is simply stealing money from the creators. Some people attempt to justify piracy by pointing to the perceived high price of their hobby and/or games, but the argument just doesn’t hold up. You don’t steal a Ferrari that you’d love to drive simply because you can’t afford it, right? Same thing.

The desire to play import games is at least a reason I can rationally understand, but cannot condone. Sure, there are games you might want to play that are either released earlier or, quite possibly, not released at all in your region. But sometimes companies have good reasons to either not release a title into a region or release it at different dates. It may be because of the time and cost of localization, marketing plans, ad buys, cultural considerations, or perhaps even because of the impact of piracy in the region. Whatever the case, it’s safe to assume the publisher has thought about it. The good news is that most publishers are developing with multiple platforms, regions, and languages in mind up front, so this is becoming less and less of an argument. (After all, it’s in the publisher’s best interest to sell as many copies as possible, right?)

Finally, let’s talk about the desire to add new functionality to the console. Some folks want to enable new functionality on consoles beyond what was delivered by the manufacturer. Sometimes the desire is to add new hardware capability (say a larger hard drive); other times it’s to add new functionality such as PVR support, web browsing, or to run homebrew applications of whatever sort might be imagined.

This is the one aspect of modding I’ve always struggled with the most myself, but at the end of the day I just can’t condone it. Here’s why.

The console business is a razor/razor blade model. Hardware (the console) is subsidized (meaning Microsoft sells it at below cost) to make it easier for consumers to get it into their homes. The business then makes this up by selling you additional hardware (peripherals), software (games), and services (Xbox Live). The success of this razor/razor blade model is tracked by analysts as the “attach rate,” or how many of these add-ons an average person might have per console. (The most common metric you’ll see tracked is the game attach rate to a console, but some analysts also track the attach rate of peripherals and Xbox Live.)

Over time you buy games (and other peripherals and services). The revenue generated from those purchases helps to make the business a profitable one (which is the reason you see a healthy game industry, and continual investment in new features, games, and hardware). Some folks point to the fact that they bought the hardware and believe they should be able to do anything they wish with it. Unfortunately, this argument ignores the fact that they’re buying that hardware at below cost, and it’s the razor/razor blade model that makes it even possible to buy at that price. The other solution would be to sell the hardware at a price that covers cost and also includes a profit margin so that selling the console alone (with no game/peripheral/service sales) could be a stand-alone business. Problem is A) this model already exists (it’s called a PC), and B) selling a console at PC prices (especially with the capabilities the console has in it) would simply be too expensive and no one would buy it. At the end of the day, the cost difference needs to be made up somewhere, and that’s why we need to you buy those razor blades.

The interesting thing to me is that I think the idea of homebrew/user-created content is looked at with much interest at Microsoft (we are a software company after all), but the challenges caused by the impact to our business model make it very difficult to enable. Interesting tidbit: a friend of mine at Microsoft once demonstrated a modded PSP to Bill Gates and showed off all of the interesting things that enabled. According to my friend Bill was intrigued and asked the audience what we might be able to do to encourage this sort of thing without damaging the business. I love that our top executives think this way – the challenge, of course, is that modchips allow much more than just homebrew software, and so it’s a tough problem to sort out.

To sum up, I think the reason we see a lot of industry angst around modchips is the piracy it enables, and the damage it causes to attach rate (which in turn breaks the fundamental model all consoles are built on). A lower attach rate is bad for the industry as a whole as it impacts game, hardware, and service sales for the entire industry (not just Microsoft). While I imagine there may be a few folks who really do just want to run custom applications on their console and have no intent to pirate games, we have yet to find a way to separate legitimate use from illegitimate. It’s disappointing, but there you go.

I do hope my opinions on the subject help you understand how many in this industry view the subject. At the end of the day piracy is a tough problem that affects us all. I do hope that it one day it won’t be as much of an issue, but I fear that time is still far away.

first timer

you know the prices of games are so high DUE to piracy…. less piracy means cheaper games.
ZafierX

I actually think its really cool that some one from the inside of microsoft actually spent the time to explain why we shouldn’t mod. I agree with a lot of what u said, especially the part about why we get the powerful console at such a cheap price. Im gonna share my view on the topic. In the original xbox, people either modded their system to run homebrew or to play their games and have fun without the price, however, modding an xbox to play games turns out to be even more expensive/time consuming than playing the games, not to mention the knowledge you have to have to actually modify your console. When halo 2 came out, alot of people that had modded xbox’s went out and bought another xbox just so they could play on xbox live. With a modded box, u cant play live, and live is fun, and fun is the reason u modded your xbox in the first place. Now with the 360, there is no way you can get the same experience without connecting your console to xbox live, and from what I understand, if you modify the on board bios of the xbox, you will get a perma ban from live, so its not worth it to do it. Now I know there are FW mods for the dvd drive, but even with that its risky to go on xbox live, and the vast majority of people would rather just pay the money for the game they want and play it online with their friends without any hassle. Thats my take on it. I still love to be the tech freak I am and explore all the realms of geeky stuff that my new tech gadgets have to offer, but I get my fix with things like trying to get windows vista media center to work with my 360 (quite the challenge), or even just play the games!
ObjectiveOpinion

After re-reading your article and all the comments, I have come to the conclusion that, perhaps you should bow out of the blogging game, Mr. Vrignaud. The consensus is that you only have one valid argument – anti-piracy.

In truth, I did not realize your lack of support for your anti-import stance, until I wrote a comment and tried to counter-point your best objections. Barryman put it best: "The argument you make against import games is completely irrelavent, to the point of non-existance." Your last ‘argument’ was an easy one. My previous comment makes clear, your objection to ‘modding to change functionality’ is a joke.

All this makes me wonder what your true motivation is. Are you simply a buffoon? I joke that MS has mostly idiots working for them, but surely there is no validity to this, right? I think your true reason for writing this was to create a dialogue featuring people you knew to be your target demographic(who else would read this). To help you,

"look out ahead one to two years and try to project where we, our competition, and the game industry in general will be."

(Taken from your "about" page)

While it is a brilliant way to get the input of your target audience, it is also underhanded. This is the reason people are mistrustful of big corporations. Of course, I could be way off. You could just be a buffoon.
noise

Hey,

Downloading or copying a game while being morally and illegal is not "stealing" it is in fact copyright infringement.

An analogy about stealing a Ferrari and how it is the same when you steal software is 100% wrong and extremely misleading.

If a Ferrari could be copied perfectly without depriving the original owner of its use then… hmm?

Would you ever have bought the Ferrari in the first place if you couldn’t copy it.. hmm?

What about the massive free exposure and advertising piracy gives companies for free? Never talked about?

Please we are not stupid don’t talk like a moronic company executive about piracy.

I don’t condone piracy, copyright infringement or stealing in anyway, I just get sick of the same false arguments over and over.

Cheers
Tigger

I feel that almost all of Ozymandais comments are very valid and I’ve appreciated a little more insight to the console model. It makes sense too – my PC system is pretty hardcore and can handle anything I throw at it, but it cost me 7 times more than an Xbox 360.

However there is one area where this post comes crashing down in flames as totally in error.

Region coding is about one thing and always will be -Price fixing, Price fixing, Price fixing. I’m an Englishman currently living in Hong Kong and I see the massive differences in these two markets first hand, whilst also having a good view of the Japanese one.

A brand new title is released in Hong Kong at less than half the price of the same game in the UK. Hong Kong can be a little slow for things to come out – often a month or two behind, but occasionally the games come out here at the same time.

The simple fact that some markets can be overcharged and manufacturers are most unscrupulous in identifying this fact and exploiting the very people who keep then in business time and time again.

Of course if games weren’t region coded how can a manufacturer charge a Englishman 20% more than an American and 50% more than a Chinese guy for his game??? He’ll just import one instead.

Much respect to Ozy though for replying to many of these posts – the fact you have responded to the feedback has made this article 100 times more interesting.
Ozymandias

This is obviously a topic of interest to a lot of folks. I do appreciate the time all of you have spent crafting your arguments – and there are a few great ideas in there that I’ll be sure to pass on to the product teams.

As with any passionate discussion there are always some areas where it’s just hard to come to a solid agreement (region-locking comes to mind from this conversation). Reminds me of a comment I once heard: "You can’t argue opinion." I guess that’s the fun of the conversation, right?
Ozymandias

Re: "Have you personally seen and used Xbox Media Center, Ozymandias? It is amazing to see how much better a homebrew dashboard is compared to the original Xbox dashboard. Twenty times as much functionality and it’s extremely customizable. It’s stunning how much talent some of the people have who write these applications; and they do it seeking absolutely no profit."

Yes, I have. And I think that sort of innovation is great… *if* we can balance the potential of piracy issue. That’s the double-edged sword. As I said in the article, I think there’s interest in trying to enable all that creativity… and I personally find that pretty exciting. Cross your fingers…
Barryman

The problem with excusing this all away by saying "you can’t argue away opinion" is that you’re NOT arguing opinion, in regards to import games. In fact, you’re not really arguing anything at all! Your stance is against forcing publishers to release their games in all regions, which NO ONE IS ASKING FOR! We’re asking for the ability to play legitimately owned Xbox 360 games on our legitimately owned Xbox 360s, and yet you are attempting to argue against that basic right, without providing an argument bearing any semblance of coherence or relevance!
Liam Galaga

Region Freedomalitizationality would be really nice. Power to the Pea pals!
Shakey_Jake33

At the end of the day, some of my favourite games were never released here in the UK, or even over in the states.

Totally understandable that X game might not be financially viable to market in a region, but publishers really shouldn’t dictate what games people can and cannot play.

My opinion anyway. Totally understand your stance mate, but the idea that I might naver have played some of my favourite games if I’d of played it how the publishers wanted just remind me how broken the model is.

Naturally, if the game is released in my region, retaining all the features of the original version, then I will support the release.

I dunno, I can see the difficulty from MS’s point of view. But from the gamers point of view, it’s not being allowed to play X game, simple as.
Bob

How can copying a game and playing a back up the same as

stealing a sports car…thats just silly.

First there is the price difference, second a sports car is not just a small object is it. third you can’t download a sports car. (not a real one any how)

I don’t beleive copying software is a good thing but comparing it to a sports car is not the same.

Its like those pirate DVD adverts in europe we get…DOWNLOADING A DVD IS LIKE STEALING A CAR. no its not is it…
qemm

Yeah that is all well and good. Except it’s a standard blah blah blah from big corporation. You try to seem open by sharing your thoughs on blogs and stuff when in fact all you’d have to do is listen to the community.

Not all people who mod their consoles do that to pirate games.

Some do that to play imports. Embrace the region-free politics and you shave that portion off.

Some mod consoles to play homebrew software. Jeez – if you’d had a slightest interest in community needs XBMC guys would be sitting in Redmond by now. 360′s PVR functionality is lightyears behind XBMC.

You fail to address community needs so the community balances the things by itself using modchips. And when modchip is in place it is awfully hard to jus save those 50 bucks. An all you do is play the broken record over and over again whining about kids stealing your ferra… oh games.
Paging

QUOTE:first timer said:

You know the prices of games are so high DUE to piracy…. less piracy means cheaper games.

I highly doubt that. Retail Game Prices have been fixed since 1986. It was $50 then and it’s $50 now.
bfdhud

I don’t buy your repsonse to the 3rd reason. It’s the manufacturer that decides to sell below cost, It’s not the consumer’s decision. And while I agree that selling below cost does help get the console into more homes. I know that is only part of the reason it’s done.

MS/Nintendo know if they console price is too high then people will just not buy it. (sony will learn this later this year). So MS/Nintendo Choose[/b] to sell below cost so the console will actually sell.

As a customer it’s not my problem or my concern if you do not make up the difference between cost and price. Personally I could care less if MS lost money on 360. I bought the console with my money and If I want to run homebrew thats my choice/problem. The piracy concern I can see and agree with 100%.

Also, before someone says "If MS lost money they wouldnt make another console." I respond with if MS decided it was a bad idea to release a Next next-gen console I’m sure Nintendo or Sony would fill in the gap. But the truth is MS will make another system even if they lost xxx dollars on this one.
Matthias

Okay, some things seem to go in the wrong direction here it seems.

Ozymandias, while I partially understand your arguments, you’re a Microsoft representative right? So very likely, your arguments are made in such a way to represent the interests of your employer. How come you think this is the way the average customer thinks? Personally, I couldn’t care less if Microsoft makes profit with their console/games/peripherals or not.

If, for some reason I just can’t think of, Microsoft should decide to drop their console gaming products (which we all know won’t happen), customers will shrug and turn to your competitors (as they did all along before Microsoft felt the urge to get their fair share of the console game market).

Sorry, but that’s the truth. It’s not that most of your customers are avid Microsoft-Fanboys who like to miss out on features because your revenues (is that the word?) dropped from 40 billion to 35 billion (forgive me that I have no accurate numbers, but I think we can all agree that Microsoft’s revenues are large enough to call a 500 million antitrust fine "peanuts").

But we don’t want to get off-topic here. My point is, from a customer’s perspective, all your points become invalid. A rational (economic thinking) customer always thinks in terms of how he can better his situation for the least cost. If someone decides to mod his Xbox and to run homebrew software on it, it’s probably because he was missing features in the product you delivered. Saying or believing that he would rather miss out on these because it implies a loss for Microsoft is just ridiculous.

Speaking of which, how come you think homebrew software implies a loss for Microsoft sales at all?! In which way do I buy less if I install a homebrew music player? Or a filesystem browser? All these are missing features for which you do not even OFFER us a solution. The number one reason why I installed a modchip in my Xbox 1 (yes, it’s legal in my country) was to run a decent media player software, an FTP server and a filesystem browser. Sorry, I can’t see in which way that harms Microsoft.

Maybe you should think how to keep people from buying modchips in the first place, instead of making lame (sorry) arguments about how bad they are for your company’s profit.

Matt out.
L33

I agree on all points except the last. Its true that if I buy the console its mine therefore I can do what I like with it. Its really not my problem that Microsoft subsidised the cost and therefore they lose money on it. MS is trying to do what the mobile telecoms industry works on – subsidised handsets that are covered by monthly subscriptions to make it a lower cost at the outset. Microsoft have to adapt their model if they want to ensure they don’t make losses because of people modding.

What about xbox live over a 3 year subscription or something like that? $10 per month? That wouldn’t hurt my pocket but it would ensure they got their costs back…
http://www.xboxic.com Curry

"Cory, I think this is an interesting trend by Sony, and I’m curious what it means in the long run. Of course, the real reason there is no regional encoding on the PS3 is because Blu-Ray doesn’t use regional encoding, opting instead for other approaches to reduce piracy."

The fact that the discs and the OS do not enforce regional encoding fundamentally is moot: the Xbox 360 is also region free. It allows publishers to region lock their game, but does not enforce it. Similarly, as long as game developers will be able to read out on the PS3 whether it’s a PAL, NTSC-J or other NTSC box (and yes they can), they can enforce region locking without even the OS cooperating. No diff between 360 and PS3 there.

As for the import locking itself: the real subject of region locking is simply "Logistics". Publishers use region locking to enable them to better predict market supply and demand, and to control their losses if a game doesn’t catch on. And if a game will be a sure or highly probable success, they use region locking to be able to supply one region sufficiently first before having to ship thousands of copies to the next region, instead of being continuously sold out in both regions for a month, costing them lots of valid sales. With stores like Play-Asia shipping worldwide at low cost, the risk is all too realistic.
http://www.xboxic.com Curry

"But we don’t want to get off-topic here. My point is, from a customer’s perspective, all your points become invalid. A rational (economic thinking) customer always thinks in terms of how he can better his situation for the least cost. If someone decides to mod his Xbox and to run homebrew software on it, it’s probably because he was missing features in the product you delivered. Saying or believing that he would rather miss out on these because it implies a loss for Microsoft is just ridiculous."

In your perfect world, everyone would be stealing their groceries (cheaper than buying after all), chip tuning their cars (a Fiat driving 300km/h is worth more than a regular one) and robbing old ladies (the cheapest way to better your own situation).

Face it, the licence agreements on your console’s BIOS, Kernel, games and chips make modifying or copying them equivalent to stealing groceries and robbing old ladies. The real question is why otherwise law-abiding citizens become sneaky lowlife robbers in the confines of their own house when there’s less chance of getting caught than outside on the street.

On the razor/razor model, did you ever notice supermarkets sell sugar, soda, milk and lots of other popular products at a loss? It’s common practice since the 70s when competition between supermarkets started to grow. Customers compare prices on those common products, hence being more expensive on those would lose them customers directly. Thus the companies elected to adapt their business model and make the actual profits on non-food, diapers and other products.
Abaddon

I disagree with the import philosophy. Say I like playing those Japanese romance adventure games – you know, the kind that have *never* been released in the US. Now, though I have decided what type of game I like to play, you’re saying that I shouldn’t be able to play it if it hasn’t been localized. You’re basically telling me that publishers in the US have a right to decide for me what games I should like. I’m sorry, but if the business model for Microsoft is this facist, I’m not sure how they can expect their end-users not to mod their consoles.
Tigger

I don’t understand how people can say that they don’t want M$ to be profitable with the 360.

The way I see it is that if M$ is succesfull then we all win eventually with better support, better games and better consoles in the future. If M$ lose we all lose too.

However, if this means I get screwed out of money everywhich way I turn then I can do without it. I hate the fact that there is no worthy competition right now and that M$ deems it appropriate to charge me for EVERYTHING from actual online play (free on pc for example) to gamerpics (free to upload whatever you wish using gamespy) and horse armour (WTF were they thinking?)!!!!!!!!

If getting my console cheaper at retail is the justification for all of the above then I hope the higher price of the Playstation3 demonstrates better aftersales value.

It’s hard to browse the marketplace without feeling like an imminent victim. Hey at least the downloadable advertisements, cough sorry, I mean the demos and videos are free.
some_other_guys_opinion

The idea of homebrew content stems from PC gaming and recognizing that a console is in fact a processing centre. I would put forth that is the sole reason mod chips are OK.

On the other hand, I gotta say that Piracy has helped MS and Sony grow to enormous sizes. Windows is the most pirated piece of software; this has allowed them to flourish as they’ve gained market footprint even though they didn’t get to collect revenue from every user.

Sony’s PS1 and PS2 were the easiest hardware to mod. The benefits of piracy are a tempting fruit, and has brought people into their fold. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve heard say "Well, I’m going to buy a PS2, and then get it modded when it’s off warranty".

That doesn’t mean I expect the company mfgring the product to CONDONE the actions, however. As it turns out, I am rational.
DCFC Fan

I think this a great article, so thanks. I do understand things a little better from I console company’s point of view.

I think when most people (read "US readers") think of "piracy", they imagine someone downloading a ROM, ISO or the like and playing it for a few hours. "What’s the harm? I wanted to try it before I buy it and it sucked." There is no harm, IMO, to that. But what they don’t think of or see pictures of is the MASSIVE, HUGE piracy problems that, though world wide, tend to center in southeast Asia. This is so for many reasons, including economy, high demand and low supply. Lots of reasons for these, but one I’ll mention is logistics and cost. As we move to digital distribution, this will help eliminate the logistics of shipping hard product around the world.

Piracy will always be around in some form. At the end of the day, whether you want to argue whether it’s law or ethics, if you play and don’t pay, you’re getting something for nothing.

This from a reformed modder, hard and soft across five platforms, though I’ve never used an Xbox, only own a 360. I understand XBMC is amazing, and if I ever were to mod my 360, it would be for some similar functionality.

With a 90 day warranty, there isn’t a lot of incentive to avoid cracking its case to mod. One question that affects the 360 modding that I’m sure MS would never give a direct answer to is, "Are the mods, firmware or hardware, detectable by Xbox Live? If they aren’t, they would never admit to it, but it’s a burning question. Would I mod my 360 for XBMC like functionality? Absolutely. Would I do it if it affected my Live functionality? A very, very bitter no.
Matthias

Curry,

"In your perfect world, everyone would be stealing their groceries (cheaper than buying after all), chip tuning their cars (a Fiat driving 300km/h is worth more than a regular one) and robbing old ladies (the cheapest way to better your own situation)."

This analogy is not reflecting adequately what I said, because installing a modchip is

a) not illegal in many countries (it’s certainly not here)

b) does not mean harm to Microsoft’s pockets, since as I said, most software which requires a modchip is simply not available as an officialy signed MS counterpart. Bottom line, you can’t steal something which does not exist right?

By your logic it would be illegal to own a knife, because you could potentially kill someone with it.
Matthias

Addition:

Notice how I talk about homebrew software, not pirated games (which of course imply a loss in sales for Microsoft). Though I’m very aware that modchips enable you to play pirated games, it does not imply that modchips in general encourage illegal activities.

Here the same idea I mentioned in my last post applies, namely the fact that it’s the individual who performs an illegal action, not the device (I’m referring to the knife-analogy).

Saying we forbid modchips because someone may possibly abuse it doesn’t make any sense to me (though for some reason, some countries have seemingly been compromised by the industry to make modchips illegal). By the same logic you could make DVD-Burners illegal, because they allow you to make illegal copies of a game.
zero

Taking a look at the modded xbox, many people use that for one homebrew app, and one alone. Xbox Media Centre. It makes a terrific home entertainment hub. It’s clear that with the 360, MS had a good look at XBMC and thought about providing similar functionality. Had they gone the whole hog then I’m sure that many people who’re thinking about modding the 360 one day just wouldn’t bother.

What do most folk want out of a console these days, ignoring pirate games? Movie playback. They want to be able to download a movie, whether that’s something illicit (naughty), something from their video camera, or whatever. They want to be able to play their own movies, streamed from their PC/Mac. In any format, be that avi, mpg, divx, xvid. That’s all. Movies that can be played on any PC or Mac, requiring nothing more than a codec for the player.

If the 360 did that then you could kiss goodbye to at least 50% of modders. They just want to watch these movies on their TV instead of computer. Live games knock a large chunk of the remainder on the head as people buy games to play online and you can’t (or couldn’t on Xbox) play those online with a modded box.

But MS won’t let you play movies on the 360. Not unless they come via WMCE, recorded via it’s PVR. Or the odd WMCE avi. No Mac support. No support for the vast majority of PCs running XP. No support for any codec other than the standard WMCE avi codec.

Why? To drive sales of WMCE? Until WMCE has RGB scart and HDMI inputs and outputs it’s just not going to do well in Europe anyway. Is it to stop movie piracy? Downloaded TV shows? What? That’s not MS’s responsibility, and in trying to block that out you also kill off legitimate use too.

The 360 could replace a modded XB with XBMC in one fell swoop, with no mods, and probably a high attach rate by allowing you to setup shares on your PC/Mac and point the 360 to them. Allowing you to play any format of music of movie file. It’s not difficult to implement and needs little more than new codecs. It’s a shame. It was the biggest disappointment at launch for many. It still dodges the Homebrew and Import scene, but it would appease the majority and wouldn’t harm MS, or their business model.
ncBadrock

Oh I wish so much you lived in Germany. Example Oblivion: No patch yet, no additional quest downloads. Example Burnout Revenge: No additional car downloads.

I only wish I bought a modded 360 in order to play US import games. So, what can I do about it now that it’s too late? Basically I can only hope that the support for my Region by future titles will get better. Or I can simply buy the PC version of the given game. I know this is only a complaint and I feel somehow shabby since everyone here is discussing and providing solutions, but the way it is at the moment it’s utterly unsatisfying. I really think abut selling my Box and returning to the PC…
Spud_Hed

i agree with the piracy point 100% but the other points i have my grumbles with, lets start with imports, i dont care about the companies ad campaign if i already want the game why should i care about advertising, if i can read the language the game is released first in then i dont care about localisation and it does not take months to translate a game, im an anime fan, it takes companies like viz media two years to licence and translate a series or movie but fan sub groups who arent even getting paid for their hard work can manage it in 20 hours after it airs in japan, worse still are games that do not need any translation whatsoever ie american games why are they not released in the uk on the same day as the us, and why the hell should i wait, i could wait and pay for it, or just download it on the us release day, if you want the money pick up the pace. not to mention my anger at microsoft for totally shafting its early adopters, we get 2 games a week released until now and itll stay the same all the way until november when around 40 games are released, they wouldnt have just held them back for the ps3 release now would they? why the hell did i buy one last year when the first really worthwhile games arent even getting released until ps3 day. now on to the homebrew issue, why did microsoft not learn from the original xbox brew apps what people wanted, why use the half a*sed windows media center dependant crap when xbmc had proven better could be done, if they had taken inspiriation from these progs or even licenced the apps from the creators and incorporated them into the system people wouldnt need to do it themselves better still just allow homebrew code to be booted in the 360, you could quite easily release corporate and a sensibly priced end user version of the SDK and with decent software protection could still block iso loading and this would even bring some extra revenue for ms on selling the sdk. another point on piracy my 360 isnt connected to the internet as there is no line at the house, not something that bothers me as i hate xbox live its full of annoying little kids slinging pathetic abuse at each other and it annoys me greatly, however this also means i cant et hold of demos with the very small and often repeated ones on the official mag, because of this ive wasted 50 quid on some terrible games (ie quake 4 prey full auto)if i could just download them from the ms site and burn them it would make my and no doubt plenty of other peoples lives very easy, but then i suppose it would bring sales of poor games down heavily if people could find out they are bad before waxing fifty notes on it
http://grza.net Grant

I have already read many people make excellent points about importing and adding functionality. I think all the basics have been said, but I’m going to repeat them as a sort of internet shout-down.

First of all, as a native-english speaker living in Japan, I find the ability to play imported games very attractive. How does your response address in any way those gamers who want to play a game that’s *not released in their region*? Are you seriously suggesting they should buy another console instead of modding the one they have? As a consumer, what incentive would they have to do so (presumably, none unless you have some obnoxious DRM in there)?

Also, let me add how your anti-importing stance goes against your razor/razor-blade-model point: Microsoft will actually receive LESS MONEY if I buy two consoles to play US- and Japan-region games, precisely because they lose money on the consoles.

Secondly, let me reiterate that the consumers do not bear the responsibility of your broken business model (if, indeed, it is broken). If you lose money because people buy your console to do things besides play games… you should charge more money for your console. Seems pretty basic.

Finally, a closing point about piracy. One big reason that pirates are able to do what they do with modern consoles is that there are legitimate reasons to hack them. If you made a console that could easily change regions, and allowed users to use the console for other tasks without modification, then mod chips would become strictly a piracy tool, and as such, I think they would be much easier to restrict. Just something to think about.
http://grza.net Grant

Cory said: "The fact that the discs and the OS do not enforce regional encoding fundamentally is moot: the Xbox 360 is also region free. It allows publishers to region lock their game"

That doesn’t sound very region free to me. There currently exist games for the 360 which will play on some versions of the console but not others. This is not region free.

The PS3 may be different, it may be the same. But if your console allows region-locking, and your company policies allow region-locking, and games exist that will only play on the consoles sold in certain regions… that’s not region free.

Give me a break, seriously. Allowing companies to make region-free games was an excellent step, but as long as there are region-locked games, people will have a very understandable (and, IMO, legitimate) desire to mod their consoles to play imports.
Porktree

Did I miss it when MS released XBMC for my original xbox so I could by it and support razor/razor economics? My Xbox 360 has made unplayable 2 disks, is MS going to replace them? Just as I never put original CD’s in a cd player, it’d be nice to be able to protect my investment in games. And wtf, let me tell you the region I want my 360 to recognize and I don’t need to chip my console in order to play games I paid to import. The only point you’ve made that has a modicum of validity is about piracy – but I think most of the people pirating the games would not have been customers of the game anyway. I’m not on the band wagon that says games are priced to high (I payed $49.95 for a game 20 years ago, I expect a little inflation), but I don’t think most pirates would have bought the game if they couldn’t pirate it so I think the losses due to piracy are way over blown. And razor/razor – what a bad business model – I thought the computer industry had learned that proprietary=BAD long ago. MS is touting this because they had to take huge losses on the original xbox to get a foot in the market, don’t spout this r/r bs and ask us to believe it.
Spaz

Microsoft says they listen.

Ok then…..I’ve read through each and every reply here, and I’d say about 30% of them, at least, mention the one reason that I stuck a mod-chip in my xbox. XBMC.

You, Ozy, have made one little reply about it :

"Yes, I have. And I think that sort of innovation is great… *if* we can balance the potential of piracy issue. That’s the double-edged sword. As I said in the article, I think there’s interest in trying to enable all that creativity… and I personally find that pretty exciting. Cross your fingers…"

What piracy issue? A large number of Divx/xvids are copy-write broken files? So? MS would not be encouraging the use of those files? Does a car manufacturer encourage you to break the speed limits? No, but you can. (Well, if you ignore all their TV ads with the closed-coarsed driver ) So when you, or I break the speed limit, should the car manufacture be held responsible? (Again, ignore the crazy USA laws where someone will probably sue GMC/FMC for just that)

So, what does MS give us? A media player that will only play vides from a XPMCE computer. Huh? That makes no sense. Most people have standard XP. So to watch a video we have to buy another license to windows, re-install our system, and convert our existing videos to the XPMCE format? I guess thats what you refer to as one of the add-ons to recoup costs.

Give us a media center that will connect to a standard windows share (SMB) and can play any video, and I’d never even consider a mod-chip for the 360. Don’t do it, dont even talk about it, and I’ll keep watching the modding scene. I’d like to be able to remove my xbox1 from my living room….get back one audio/video connection….give it to my daughter (my son has his own xbox) so she will buy the games she wants from it…
Tubby Tuna

I believe there are good reasons for a modchip. The one and only reason i want a modchip for myself is because i have stupid drunk and stoned friends who love my 360. They basicaly destroy my games and i force them to buy me a new copy instead of a sack or a six pack. Another reason is since microsft is gay, and won’t let me play any of the original xbox games i have. So i have wasted time and money. I would love a modchip for those reasons. As far as piracy is concerned… that’s what xbox live is for… ban ban ban. Besides, where do u think the whole "dashboard" idea came from?…. all the pirates out there… how bout listening to music while playin a game? that originated with the pirates… what about streaming content? like divx and movies from ur pc? pirates again are responsible for these great qualities.. yet microsoft wont even use the full potential of the hardware. All of which modchips are useful for.
Matthias

zero,

"Taking a look at the modded xbox, many people use that for one homebrew app, and one alone. Xbox Media Centre. It makes a terrific home entertainment hub. It’s clear that with the 360, MS had a good look at XBMC and thought about providing similar functionality. Had they gone the whole hog then I’m sure that many people who’re thinking about modding the 360 one day just wouldn’t bother."

I 100% agree, so I’m quoting this for emphasis, and it also proves my point that installing a modchip does not necessarily imply illegal activity. The only reason why my modded Xbox 1 still has its central place under my TV is for the mere reason of being able to run XBMC (I even use it as my dashboard; calling XBMC a media player is an ultra-understatement).

And why is this? Because Microsoft isn’t capable of delivering a solution to the 360 which is even nearly on par with XBMC. I don’t really want to draw conclusions here though.

"So, what does MS give us? A media player that will only play vides from a XPMCE computer. Huh? That makes no sense. Most people have standard XP. So to watch a video we have to buy another license to windows, re-install our system, and convert our existing videos to the XPMCE format? I guess thats what you refer to as one of the add-ons to recoup costs."

A tad off-topic, but… I’m running Linux exclusively on my desktop PC and primarily on my notebook, so I know what you’re on about. Check this out: http://www.twonkyvision.de/

Check for their "TwonkeyMedia" solution. They have a trial version which terminates after 30 minutes. I tested it on Ubuntu Breezy, worked like a champ.
Zimmy

MS won’t allow imported games simply because it will lose them money in markets outside the US.

I live in Australia and most 360 games retail here at $120 on release, or a little over $91 US.

That’s over $30 US on top of the RRP we have to pay.

There’s a reason Ozymandias has avoided any critiques of his argument to the import issue whilst trying to seem like he’s looking at other viewpoints for his other points, it’s bias.

A supposedly informative article on the pros and cons of modchips that’s really an advertisement against piracy? They have a name for things like that, propaganda.
http://w.voodoochilli.com Voodoochilli

I havent had a chance to read through all of the above posts, so forgive me if someone has already touched on this:

"That’s the crux of the problem. If you can find a way to allow people to run homebrew software (and/or allow backups without enabling piracy), I think folks would be interested in exploring. But right now I don’t think any of can point to a solution that doesn’t enable piracy.

Am I wrong?"

How come we can download Xbox live arcade games and play them? Dont they use some sort of encoding/hash key thing that allows them to play on only one hard drive, the one it was downloaded on to? Why can’t we download full games at a reduced price? (no packaging and retail cut) Why cant we also download paid for movies on the xbox 360 as well, the capability is there already and it would reduce piracy overall.
KingKaid

I am a modder and depending on the use of the modchip it is not a bad thing. With the original xbox I used the modchip for XBMC (which frankly kicks ass and still beats the pants off the 360 one… although it is a good start). It is nice to be able to stream movies from my PC (which I ripped from dvds which I own) to my TV. I also downloaded games *gasp*… however here’s the neat thing… I would play the game, and you know what, if I liked it… I would BUY it. I bought dreamfall, megaman AC and a whole slew of other games recently because I could try them before I bought them. And this is why the demos on the 360 are so good. Hell I had finished dreamfall and I still bought it, how is that for trying to support the publisher?

Here are the problems with the 360 right now. First I understand the reason to link the arcade games to the specific box, hell I applaud it. Problem… I had to have my 360 replaces, and I no longer can play the game on my 360 without being on live (and since I take it to the cottage that lacks internet, this can be a problem). There is no reason why Microsoft cannot enable backups to work the same way as the arcade games. You pop in a 360 title, say: I want to back up this game to this console. If you insert a burned copy of the disc into the 360, you can play it, so long as it is hooked up to live. Sure you may end up with 2 copies of the game out there, but that is a big improvement.

I am also still waiting for the ridgeracer 6 patch that makes it impossible to stream from your PC and connect to live at the same time (doing so causes the game to lag to 1 frame/second). Namco refused to give me a refund or anything, and I cannot return an opened game… so I am stuck.

Microsoft should really let people customize their 360 more. I would love to make my own skin. And until people can fully do stuff like that, modchips will continue to exist.
http://utahcon.efx2.com Utahcon

What about DRM technologies? I am not one to jump out there and promote open ended DRM use but I think that you could easily do so with Xbox/360 and other "next gen" console with DRM and backup.

Setup the system so the original owner of a game can copy the game to their HD or whatever the backup medium is, though use of a software key, that is checked on load using the XBL service.

This allows for a few things, faster loading times (loading from the HD instead of the device), better storage options, as well as the need for larger storage devices (hint hint).

I think that MS of all people should be able to make strides in this arena.
Joshua

The razor/Razorblade model does not apply. I didn’t force you to sell it below cost. So since you sold it to me below cost, do I have an obligation to play or purchase other things, what if i never buy anythign else but the console.

The second it leaves the store it is mine and I can do what I want to it. With that said there are certan things I give up by doing those things such as support, XboxLive Service, etc. I’m not ofr the whole pirate thing but i like the homebrew scene, I like the added functionality that the original developers never thought of. I like the fact that people are using there brains to create a better product.

ahh well thats my 2 cents
Spud_Hed

just another short point about imports, technically all imports are illegal as licences are issued by region and do not extend past the border of the country in which it is licenced and hence they can only sell them within these borders or they are encroaching on some other countries possible revenue, however if said game is not licenced in your county you cannot be charged with piracy as no one owns the rights to it in your region this is again the same scenario as with anime you can legally download and provide downloads of unlicenced series provided you are not making a profit from it until said item is licenced in your country
http://www.360advocate.com Sirharper

Good story, one that needed to be told. Modders are by nature harmful to the gaming community because they use certain advantages not generally made to the larger population. Priacy is of course the most harmful, illegal, and reprehensable act. Most people understand that when you pirate you are denying the content creator compensation for their efforts. The bypass of geographic regioning is also harmful in a lessor in the sense that certain sales and marketing efforts were bypassed. Also the creator is exposed to legal risk running the potential of shipping banned material into prohibited areas (such as depictions of swastika’s within Germany). Remember how Rockstar was held responsible for content that only a mod could unlock. There are exceptions soley in my own view that I think are acceptable. One being the ability to play DVD’s on the previous Xbox. There was just no justification to force people into paying addition money to unlock a feature the console already had. That was dirty pool IMO. Another case is when somebody buys a console and essentially uses the parts to build some other device such as a computer. I realize consoles are sold at a loss but thats the risk understood and taken. How would that be different than somebody buying the console and simply not using it?
julio9

For me, modding my xbox was what kept me interested in the machine. I probably ended up buying over 20 full games for it–including peripherals like the Silent Scope gun & game, and 2 DDR pads. However, when there wasn’t a game I was interested in, it was all my mods that kept me turning the machine on every single day. Had I not modified my xbox, I probably wouldn’t have bought as much software, because I would have lost interest in the console as a whole.

Furthermore, I do disagree with your stance on imports. While I didn’t play many, there were a few gems that I loved — especially Metal Wolf Chaos. Also, I was very disappointed when Red Star was cancelled. However, with some hard searching I was able to find the game and play it on my modded box anyway.

Tell me, who is hurt when I play a game that was never, and probably never will be released? Red Star was completed before Acclaim went down, but the game never got bought by another studio, and so was never released commercially. It’s a shame, too. I would strongly encourage ANYBODY with the means to find and play this game. It is a complete blast.
julio9

For me, modding my xbox was what kept me interested in the machine. I probably ended up buying over 20 full games for it–including peripherals like the Silent Scope gun & game, and 2 DDR pads. However, when there wasn’t a game I was interested in, it was all my mods that kept me turning the machine on every single day. Had I not modified my xbox, I probably wouldn’t have bought as much software, because I would have lost interest in the console as a whole.

Furthermore, I do disagree with your stance on imports. While I didn’t play many, there were a few gems that I loved — especially Metal Wolf Chaos. Also, I was very disappointed when Red Star was cancelled. However, with some hard searching I was able to find the game and play it on my modded box anyway.

Tell me, who is hurt when I play a game that was never, and probably never will be released? Red Star was completed before Acclaim went down, but the game never got bought by another studio, and so was never released commercially. It’s a shame, too. I would strongly encourage ANYBODY with the means to find and play this game. It is a complete blast.
Padraic

The only reason I back modding is the ability to backup my games I own. Until Company X is willing to replace my game that I bought free of charge (send in faulty game disc, get new game disc), my stance won’t change. When these games cost us 60-70$ a pop, and something happens to the disc, I don’t feel like going and having to repurchase the game all over again (I take care of my property, but face it, accidents happen). I’d rather make my copy to play from, and keep the original safe.
woolf

To encourage homebrew applications and still keep the razor/razor blade model working, I would recommended MS to open/implement some kind of managed runtime environments for homebrew applications. I.e. something like Java runtime environment, .Net framework, Flash etc. So the homebrew developers can create and run some managed code in the corresponding virtual machines to enable applications like tic-tac-toe, reversi etc, and commercial game developers can still sell games created in C/C++ running in native mode. For some non-trial applications written in managed code, the homebrew authors can choose to sell it via xbox arcade or by themselves.
Matt

First, I’ll agree that most modchips are probably used for playing pirated games.

About the homebrew, though. The PS3 is supposedly going to include Linux. Thus, Sony is officially allowing homebrew. Why do they do that? Despite being more expensive than the 360, they’re still losing money on every console sold.

Why can’t Microsoft have something like Xbox Media Center on the 360? Yes, I know you’re trying to sell media center PCs, but not everyone wants one of those. The DVRs of cable and satellite providers are more convenient. And why doesn’t the 360 support DivX at all? I know an official product like XBMC can’t be released because of all the patents it’s breaking, but you could at least let the users buy a DivX licence.
Matt

And to Spud_Hed, how are imports illegal? First, if your country doesn’t respect the copyright of a particular game, it would be legal to pirate it. Although, because of international copyright laws, I don’t know if that ever happens.

If you’re buying the actual item, and the makers/publishers get money, I don’t see how it could be illegal. Perhaps the retailer who sends the games to other countries would be breaking their contract with the publisher, but I’m guessing most companies who do that don’t have such a contract barring export.

As to bypassing region locking, I don’t know if it’s legal. It obvious seems like it is with the Gamecube and the Freeloader, as Datel didn’t get in trouble for selling that.
Jeff

Why I am modding my Xbox:

1) I have 50 games for my Xbox, its a hell of a lot easier to install a big hard drive and rip them onto it and bring just my machine plus controllers to school than carrying a bunch of games cases that take up a bunch of space and are at risk for damage etc – plus they load near instantaneously.

2) I’m a Mac user, and so far I have no option to stream any media from my computer to either my Xbox or Xbox 360… that and XBMC is a lot better than anything out there. Maybe if Microsoft just supported simple Windows sharing and SAMBA that any OS can work with to share media it would not be necessary? No, I will not buy Vista to do this – you are on crack to expect that Maybe if you guys supported a protocol that any platform could use there’d be less reason to hack your machine to work with it.

3) I don’t play XboxLive on my Xbox 1 anymore.

Sorry, but your arguements just don’t hold any water. Imports are completely legal and mod chips are great enablers for people to play games that publishers won’t release here. I sure would have loved to give Thousand Lands on Xbox a try, and I get pissed off when I hear Square won’t be bringing Project Silph for Xbox360 to America.

As for the piracy boogeyman. I know it makes an impact, but people who pirate mercilessly are going to do so… but I’m completely legit with my game purchasing. Its the same thing as why DRM sucks. Sure drm-free media can be "pirated" but why should you punish the legit people? Those who want to pirate will get around your security anyway.
THEDEANOFGAMES

When you buy a console, at least in the case of the Xbox 360, wasn’t there a legal document that popped up on the screen and users had to agree not to modify the console? If so, this is a legal binding agreement that you won’t mod a console or illegal pirate software.

When you bought your console then you would have already agreed thus giving up your argument to make later that it is ‘your console’ and you can do with it what you like.

A game console is more than just an item like a car, it is intellectual property.

The Ferrari argument still holds water because even though you aren’t stealing the Ferrari you accessed it with the explicit idea that you would make an exact duplicate thus stealing the worth of the vehicle based on the original plans, concept, research, and engineering.

If you studied how cars are made and then made one on your own it would be a different story but you would be making an exact duplicate of the car based on their designs and that IS stealing regardless of the fact that there isn’t a missing physical object.

You have money in your wallet that you earned but that does not give you the right to duplicate it because it devalues the overall dollar.

A ferrari has worth to it, and pardon the pun but it’s grand theft auto to steal a vehicle like that.

Copying it exactly and using it so you don’t have to buy one is similar to counterfeiting and stealing the intellectual property that went into that vehicle.

If the console is yours would you then argue that you could duplicate it and sell it to your friends? After all, it’s your console.

Back in the 80′s we had a cable service known as ONTV. After a while homebrew people started copying the hardware and selling it so that other people could watch movies without paying. This caused the ultimate demise of ONTV and should be used as a model in comparison as to why the hardware should not be modified.
Fred or Alive

I’m in the UK, and I’m another person who has put two and two together and knows that region locking is mostly about price and release date fixing. The added bonus to this is some games just aren’t released here at all (stuff the US gets, as well as the stuff from Japan), and "officially" there would be feck all I could do about it.

I haven’t bought an Xbox 360 yet, but frankly if the Revolution or the PlayStation 3 are really region free, that would make them far more appealing to me, as I’m fed up of being ripped off (or just not getting games). If they aren’t region free, I’ll have to take the slightly less flexible approach, and buy a US system instead, even if I’d miss out on some of the Japanese / European stuff. (It’s a bit late for the 360 of course, unless Microsoft forced all new games to be region free, instead of their current policy of leaving it up to the publisher).
Spud_Hed

"The bypass of geographic regioning is also harmful in a lessor in the sense that certain sales and marketing efforts were bypassed"

Ive seen this one and similar a few times in this thread, why the hell should we care, if i already want the game anyway the marketing has absolutely no effect, unless of course i see an advert and think "actually that looks utter sh*te" then i dont buy it and revenue is lost

The Problem with Modchips

Tag Cloud

Recent Posts

Blogroll

The Basics

Links

Categories

Pages

Archives

Search